Tuesday, July 28, 2009

Rapture

So Sarah and I were laying in bed last night thinking about the future. I actually started out the conversation with "I wonder if we will ever get to be old." Then we got on to the baby and the rapture and we got to thinking about our doctrines and figured out that something has got to be wrong about what we were brought up believing; we don't know what, but something.

You see, we always were told about the age of accountability, which I personally don't believe in right now, but it sure makes a lot of people feel better. Anyway, if we believe in the age of accountability, then we believe that babies will all go to heaven when the rapture happens, that is (the other belief I grew up on) if we believe in a pre-tribulational rapture. So if we believe in that, then we would believe that all babies will go to heaven at the rapture, and with our pro-life views, we believe that since life begins at conception, we would have to believe that at the rapture there will be pregnant women who are no longer pregnant. Does that make sense? Are you following me?

So what about the verse that says at the time of the beginning of the tribulation, "Woe to those who give suck in those days..." If all of our beliefs (most of the people that read this blog) are true, there wouldn't be any babies that would be nursing at that time. One of our beliefs has to give. Of course, none of them are major doctrines of the faith, and I personally do not believe in the age of accountability (not that it couldn't be true, but I don't think it has Biblical basis, and I believe that we just have to trust that God knows what He is doing). Also, lately I have thought that our pre-trib view of the rapture has little solid Biblical basis, although that is certainly what I am hoping for, and certainly at this point what I believe.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

Do you find, as I do, the thought of babies in the womb being raptured as an interesting thought?

9 comments:

Jewda said...

This is something I question a lot, too. The age of accountability stopped making sense to me a while ago. We don't go to hell, because we rejected Christ. We go to hell, because we are sinners, and sin isn't allowed in Heaven. Babies are born in sin, and sin's not allowed in Heaven, and that's tough stuff to wrestle with. I actually believe in partial predestination: God chooses some vessels of blessing and some for destruction. I guess that means He chooses some that will go to Heaven, and some that will go to Hell (like Judas?). It's not total predestination, because He also talks about free will. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Anyway, I think that verse you reference is just another example of what we believed being a little bit of feel good theology instead of good hermeneutics.

reuminations said...

Dave,
I thought i might add something, If you believe that the unborn baby that dies or the born baby that dies goes to heaven or hell or nowhere, thats fine, thats one thing. But in a rapture sense i don't think it applies because they did not die. i know that sounds like i'm stating the obvious, but it seems like you're applying what happens to the dead, to the living.

Dlong said...

The verses you reference (Mt. 24:19, and Luke 21:23) actually refer to the mid-point or end of the tribulation just prior to the 2nd coming. This would be at least 3.5 yrs. since the rapture and certainly leaves plenty of time for more babies to be born.

David Carrel said...

Jeff, I think those are a couple feel good doctrines we have had. Interesting about your other thoughts on predestination. Wasn't meaning to get into it, but I guess what doctrine doesn't touch that? haha.
Sardone, thanks for visiting: I guess what I was trying to say was that if we as pro-lifers believe that a baby is a baby at conception, then if we also believe in the age of accountability, and then the rapture happens and all believers go up, then the baby in the womb would go up.
So if those were the case, then that could possibly happen and those doctrines be true, just the verse about those who are nursing in those days talks about the mid-point of the tribulation. I guess I didn't think about that and do my research before posting.
But the post and you all's comments definitely brings out some interesting points.

drewtankersley said...

What you said sparked my interest on the subject of the age of accountability. So I did some study on the topic. The proponents of this belief will cite II Samuel passage where David said, "I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

As I was studying it ran across the passage in Matthew 19:14 that says of the children "Of such is the kingdom of God." One commentator says, "These children were too young to have exercised person faith. Luke 18 calls them infants. Therefore, it is all the more significant that Christ used them as an illustration of those who make up "the kingdom of heaven." God often shows a special mercy to those who because of age or mental deficiency are incapable of either faith or willful unbelief (John 4:11). They are called "innocent" in Jeremiah 19:4. This does not mean they are free from the inherited guilt and moral corruption of Adam's sin. But they are not culpable in the same sense as those whose sins are premeditated and deliberate. Jesus' words here suggest that God's mercy is graciously extended to infants so that those who die are sovereignly regenerated and granted entrance into the kingdom - not because they are deserving of heaven, but because God, in His grace chooses to redeem them.

Just a thought on the idea to contribute to the discussion. Let me know what you think.

David Carrel said...

Thanks Drew, those are some great points! I have really only heard about II Samuel as the place where people have got that view. I have never heard people use those other verses as well. You know, it could be true that there is an age. But I still think that there is not enough evidence to say that the Bible for sure teaches it. For example, as a Pastor counseling a couple who has just lost a child; I think that I would feel as if I were lying if I told them that their child was for sure in heaven, at least in my own conscience. I would say that we can trust in God and leave it in His hands. The other night I was thinking about it, and that thought gave me peace as far as the new baby coming is concerned. It is a very touchy topic as a lot of emotions go into that belief. That is why John Piper says that he preaches that from the pulpit before it happens, rather than telling that to people in the hospital.
Thanks Drew, appreciate your input!

Robert Hall said...

I have read your blog and I have to say I disagree with you. First, with your statement tat you do not believe in an age of accountability. In Deut.1, Moses is reminding the children of Israel how they have sinned by not going in to possess the land. He reminds them of how they have rebelled in vs.26 after the report of the 12 spies. In vs.39 howerver, God tells them that their little ones who"had no knowledge of good and evil" would go into the land. Here God set an age of accountability. They has to know or understand good and evil in order to be judged. I must conclude that God does not punish a person that incapable of understanding what sin is and that they have committed it. In Matt.18:6 Jesus is condemning anyone who offends a "little one" who believes in Him. A baby can not make those choices to believe. I Cor 13:11 "When I was a child....but when I became a man I put away childish things" Understanding comes with maturity. I am not saying that only adults can be saved but there has to be understand of sin and need of a Savior before one can be held accountable. In the case of Davids son who died so after he was born, David says that he will go to him in IISamuel 12:23. I don't believe that David when to hell. How could David know that he would see him again? Also, it would not have been recorded in scripture if it were not true/inspired. This was a comfort to David not a despair to him.
To your question about the rapture, I believe that babies will go to heaven. Children are covered by their innocence until they can understand good and evil.
As to pregnant women,(and your belief in Calvinism) what if the woman is saved and the baby is not elected to be? will the unborn baby just fall to the ground as the mother is raptured? I don't think so.
Now to your reference to Matt 24:19."woe to them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days". You used this verse out of context. This is referring to vs15 which talks about the abomination of desolation which happens at the mid-point of the tribulation Daniel 9:27. This is an action of the Anti-christ who is revealed 3 1/2 years earlier at the beginning of the tribulation. According to II Thes 2:7 The Holy Spirit is removed before the Anti-Christ is revealed. The church has to go with him since he indwells us. The tribulation is also for judging this world and for bringing Israel back to God. I Thes 5;9 states that " God hath not appointed us to wrath" So I believe that there is scripture to back up a pre-tribulation rapture.

drewtankersley said...

Something to think about. Romans 7:9 says that "we were alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." My question then is how was Paul alive without the law. With your reasoning, Paul would have to have been alive before Moses. I think a better interpretation is that we were innocent and alive in Christ until we came to the realization of the commandment. Similarly, Peter says of the elect in I Peter 1:3 that he has begotten us AGAIN unto a living hope. How have we been begotten a second time without the innocence of the age of accountabilty?

David Carrel said...

Robert, thanks for visiting, and for the comments. You had some great references to look up. It does make a lot more sense and make us feel better if there is an age of accountability. The passage with David fits a lot better. More on this below. As far as the tribulation goes. I remember Brother Joe telling us about the Holy Spirit being gone and so us being gone and that is the main reason why I would still consider myself pre-trib. I just still have my doubts on it. That would be weird if a baby did not go up, but the mother did when it comes to the rapture. Kind of a disgusting thought actually. I think it will be weird too if the rapture happens and a mother carrying a baby just all of a sudden does not have the baby in her stomach. Say she was 8-9 months pregnant and bam, talk about losing weight fast. haha.

Good points Drew, not sure about my answers for that one (not that I am one to have answers, I am definitely and probably will always be working out my beliefs). The first statement about Paul having to be alive before Moses, I would respond, maybe he was referring to us as in all those in Adam, or humans, and being alive before the commandments. But then that does not work, cause there were definitely pagans before Moses.
But then referring to Robert and Drew, if we are born with a sin nature, as I thought was pretty established Biblically, being in Adam, the reason Jesus was a virgin, etc..., then would the seed from Adam just not bloom until after the age of accountability? Is that how it works? But then why do babies still sin? And does a baby's sin not count until a certain age, cause they know they are doing wrong, you can tell, cause they lie about it.

And again, I am not saying that the age of accountability is just not possible, I was just saying that I do not feel comfortable teaching it as Biblical fact. I would just rather put those things in the hands of God and say that He is Just to do whatever He does (which hopefully from our point of view, have an age of accountability, ha).

And just want to re-emphasize that when I wrote this post, I did not mean to imply that any of these beliefs were for sure not true, just that I had some doubts some of them and how interesting it would be if they were all true at the time of the rapture. But basically the whole point was blown away when a couple of you correctly pointed out that I had taken the verse in Matthew out of context about the mother's that were nursing heading to the hills (I thought of the post while laying in bed and did not do any research, unfortunately making me look ignorant, before writing the post).

Either way, I thank you all for the conversation as it was very interesting. And continue on, should you please.